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September 01, 2008

Comments

I'd rather not wait for tomorrow, so could you net this out for me? How much more than 34% efficient would NetApp be using Fractional Reservations set to 0% and 10%?

Hi Edwin,

At FSR=0, our storage efficiency wins Chuck's magic circus sideshow with 34+37=71%. OTOH - with FSR=10, we're down in the 68% territory, less than the magic 70%.

That's if you trust Chuck's numbers actually deliver 70% for a CLARiiON :-)

Beyond Exchange, the space problems for a CLARiiON further multiply.

VMware? No deduplication of VMDKs on a CLARiiON. EMC doesn't do it. That's according to Chuck Hollis, so you don't take my word for it.
http://chucksblog.typepad.com/chucks_blog/2008/07/have-i-seen-thi.html

Oh dear. That's the downside of them thar "EMC real LUNs (tm, pats pending)".

Real capacity issues.

Nice debunk, Val. As they say where I come from, it's a belter!

StoreVault? StoreVault!

You've got to be effin sh*tting me!

Chuckie lays out a >120 disk requirement - and then compares to a single shelf SMB system capable of spinning only 12 drives?

Just how desparate is EMC to make this trick work?

Hi Val,

This is neto from Brazil

How are you?

Pledge...

Fallacy.

http://technet.microsoft.com/en-us/library/bb738146(EXCHG.80).aspx

or ...

http://blogs.netapp.com/databases/2008/08/snapshot-snapsh.html

see the last picture... :-)

All the best my best friend

neto
NetApp - I love this company!

This is more than just a random volley from EMC. Our sales droid from EMC just dropped off a "confidential" sales doc which seems to be a verbatim clone of Chuckie's blog on this subject.

What to do? Why would Chuck publicly post a confidential EMC document? Why would their sales guys share it so liberally outside the company?

If there's enough demand here and people think the contents are already effectively in the public domain, I'll find a way to share it online.

Thanks for all the comments folks!

FastFreddy - welcome! Yeah the link to the old StoreVault paper also caught my eye, but I didn't want to waste too much bandwidth on it. I agree it is yet another indication of the level of desperation @ EMC to try and make their weak efficiency argument stick. And as Alex points out above, we haven't even begun to discuss mature thin provisioning technology for multi-tenancy requirements or today's killer app - PRIMARY DEDUPE! :)

Insider442 - welcome as well! Now IANAL, so please make sure you're not violating any NDA as you handle that confidential doc from EMC. OTOH - If you get a professional legal opinion that those contents are now in the public domain via Chuck's blog posts over the past few days, then I'm sure we'd all like to see it. But remember, when in doubt just leave well enough alone!

There seems to be plenty of interest in this topic throughout the storage blogosphere, so I'm hoping my upcoming follow-up post tonight will be equally well received...

Hey Val-

That StoreVault (now S family) paper represents my attempt to state as clearly and openly as possible the approach we take to data protection. I'm quite flattered that it is being used to compare to an EMC box!

Fundamentally Data ONTAP works the same way in all locations. If you understand it once, you 'get it' for all of your systems. The StoreVault paper is a great starting place but, as you well know, we make a number of default assumptions for that product and it is by no means an accurate portrayal of the extent of customization possible.

Just thought your readers might want to know.

Drew Meyer

Hi Drew,

Great point! Let me be clear that I am a big fan of that paper (from way back in the day when Jon Toigo also highlighted it). The candor and advice in that paper was refreshing and certainly appreciated by the typically less than enterprise storage-savvy SMB audience for which it was intended.

My main point above was how sad it is that EMC felt the need to abuse the candor and intended audience of that paper completely out of context for their "Pledge" which consisted of 200 odd spindle configurations (with about a dozen shelves!) often found at the top of most storage vendor's modular mid-range arsenals.

But you've probably got the better perspective on this. EMC has just validated that the NetApp S Family is more than a match for the AX4 and is indeed comparable to their CLARiiON CX4 family! :)

Even though the HP EVA perspective is not part of my response, let me provide a link to their position for completeness, as some of you are now coming over here from other sites / blogs:

http://www.communities.hp.com/online/blogs/datastorage/archive/2008/08/29/emc-distortion-about-capacity-efficiency.aspx

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