« NetApp's Secret Competitive Advantage | Main | Is NetApp Perfect? »

January 26, 2009

Comments

This is a known EV bug (Of many) where the data isn't stored on the Centera in the first place.

I'd ask about NetApp's archiving credibility but I'm not sure if the company has any.

Still deleting items out of your inbox when you hit your quota? You might want to buy some email archiving software, I'll do you a good deal! :-D

Mark is right -- the bug is a Symantec one, not a Centera one. I doubt you'll correct this blog post, though. Telling the truth wouldn't be any fun, would it?

Val, you don't seem to be able to write anything unless you're attempting to beat up someone, usually EMC.

You've gotten in trouble before with this sort of behavior. Looks like you're heading down the exact same road again.

-- Chuck

Hey Val,

Great post. I just checked to see what Google's "Good Housekeeping" check turned up for EMC Centera:

http://www.google.com/search?hl=en&q=emc+centera+data+loss&btnG=Google+Search&aq=f&oq=

Ouch... I'd hate to have been the Symantec developer who was tasked with porting their software to that beast.

I also say kudos to Symantec for posting the exposure, although it does certainly read like they're pointing the finger to EMC. EMC regularly posts concerns and issues to their customers, so I'm not sure why it should be exploited against them even if it isn't their issue -- problems occur with products, even NetApp's. It's a social responsibility to find them, report them, and fix them.

Val -

Your misdirection-laden post indicates that you apparently did not take the time to carefully and objectively read through Symantec's report.

In their report, Symantec basically admits it was they who were the cause of any "silent corruption" because their software did not report its failure to successfully store the "lost" objects into Centera. Whether their code inadvertently did not attempt to store these objects in the first place, or their software simply failed to check and handle an error condition isn't clear. But your (unfounded) assertion of guilt aside, I can find no language from Symantec's report indicating that the Centera either lost or corrupted a successfully stored object.

As innovative and reliable as Centera has proven to be in the market, it alas cannot retrieve objects that were not first stored in it.

In your haste and glee to attack a market-respected competitor, it seems you have abandoned objectivity and misrepresented the facts. IMHO, you've demonstrated a questionable lack of integrity and judgment in this post.

Were blogging now!

I think the debate strategy here is to attack the author rather than examine the issue. I'd like to get this discussion focused back on the issue.

EMC did a great job marketing the Centera - right time, right product. In fact, EMC's virtual monopoly on the market allowed them to be very up front with where they thought the Centera fit and where it didn't. Kudos to EMC on that (and it shouldn't take a monopoly to inspire that type of honesty). I think the up-take on the product even surprised many at EMC. The downside of that initial success was exposing the flaws of a rigid and proprietary CAS approach in an area where flaws were not to be tolerated, Compliance. EMC basically took an architecture that in its previous life was largely responsible for storing adult entertainment on the web and turned it into a compliance solution targeted at meeting federal regulations. The two worlds couldn't be more different when it comes to retaining "critical" data. (Losing a picture of Pam Anderson is different than losing a customer's insurance claim). We also know that back in 1996 RSA (now part of EMC's security division) issued an advisory warning customers to stay away from storing important information using MD5. (You would think EMC would listen to its own security division). "Cracks" to MD5 were consistently reported (one fellow did it on an Acer laptop over his Christmas break) but EMC continued to rely on this approach not just for data organization but for data integrity - big difference. (EMC acquiesced and included a stronger hash ID but the same argument applies as hash technology erodes over time.) Good and bad, this is all part of the history of the product and issues with the technology it was built upon so I'm not sure how you spin this one away from the facts.

On a more subjective note, EMC also clung to the notion (at least outwardly) that a proprietary API interface would ensure tight integration and offer enhanced security. Jon Toigo has often commented on the vendor lock-in strategy as the true driving force. I agree. Regardless, Paul Carpentier (one of the founding fathers of CAS, founder of Filepool) put it best in his interview with Jon Toigo: "Complexity on the outside reflects what happens on the inside..." Putting aside the marketing spin that the Centera was somehow "self-healing" it is this complexity that has lead to these issues. We know customers that have had to recover "orphaned" data. Many a script has been run by many a "tiger team" to reconnect C-Clips and objects. We know issues with the Garbage Collection process have tossed out the baby with the bathwater - objects that cannot be recovered. Now we have a KB article from Symantec specifically regarding the Centera. Yet another indication, yet another story to add to a growing list of the potential issues that reflect the complexity of "what happens on the inside."

Let me say that CAS is not in and of itself a bad idea. I think Paul's new company, Caringo, is extremely interesting and has done some great work to open up and simplify that architecture. I'm a fan. I think EMC's implementation of CAS is flawed. EMC has essentially built themselves a rigid and complex architecture. So much so that when it came time to look into "cloud" architectures, they chose to acquire new companies to build this next generation CAS solution rather than simply leverage the CAS architecture underneath their noses. (We're also seeing an increased focus on Celerra as a compliance platform - that evil NAS/file system approach decried by EMC years ago). It does make you ponder the comment made by Filepool's other founder, Jan Van Riel, when he left EMC to join Paul at Caringo: "With EMC scaling down the Centera unit and the future of Centera unclear the chance to join Caringo, which understands the potential of CAS, and partner once again with Paul Carpentier was too good of an opportunity to pass up." Best of luck to Jan at Caringo but RIP Centera? EMC will say that reports of Centera's death are greatly exagerated but with new CAS platforms not based on Centera and compliance functionality creeping into Celerra, one has to wonder.

So, whether the fault lies with Symantec or EMC, both should be commended for taking action to notify customers. As Anonymous mentions, all products will have help desk cases opened against them. However, history seems to indicate that the Centera is particularly susceptible to these types of errors and unfortunately it is in an industry where errors are simply not tolerated. I hope what isn't lost in all of this huffing and puffing from EMC are the remediations Val recommended. Those are solid suggestions whether you move to NetApp or not.

Now given this as a backdrop, I do think it's fair for us to turn up the heat on CAS 2.0 (aka. Atmos) given the track record of CAS 1.0 (aka. Centera). What lessons were learned or will EMC propagate the same design? What does that new design tell us about Centera deficiencies? I'm not sure why customers would take a leap of faith that CAS 2.0 has to be better than CAS 1.0. We're talking about the life blood of any company here so I'm not sure the "trust me" sales strategy works.

Woot! Nothing like a blogfight to drive traffic and comments... :)

Now let's take 'em on one by one (when I'm not doing real work :)

First off - Hi Zilla. Thanks for the comment.

Were it not so predictable, I would have written it myself and saved you the trouble of the attempt at wit :)

On a more serious note, I think it will be very interesting to see the opinions of other more experienced subject-matter experts on this topic. What will they "expose"?

Hi Chuck. Welcome back to Exposed.

True to form, it's nice to see you immediately attempt to personalize an evidence-based product discussion. Please spend more time here and look around. You'll see I only address EMC every now and then - and only when you have it coming :)

Also, please remind me of the "trouble" I got into last time? I seem to recall many independent users and even more objective expert analysts agreed with my position(s) rather than yours.

It seems the only trouble I get into is with you and your selectively delicate sensibilities, forcing you to autocratically censor comments from me (with condescending reminders no less) which you don't want appearing on your blog.

Regardless, I consider it a compliment either way.

I look forward to observing how much EMC is willing to sacrifice your relationship with Symantec here (by throwing them under the bus) in order to cover up the truth about Centera's obvious data porosity.

Verify your Comment

Previewing your Comment

This is only a preview. Your comment has not yet been posted.

Working...
Your comment could not be posted. Error type:
Your comment has been posted. Post another comment

The letters and numbers you entered did not match the image. Please try again.

As a final step before posting your comment, enter the letters and numbers you see in the image below. This prevents automated programs from posting comments.

Having trouble reading this image? View an alternate.

Working...

Post a comment

© NetApp, Inc.  |  "Safe Harbor" Statement  |  Privacy Policy