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February 02, 2009

Comments

Wow.

Somehow I was expecting a bit more than a flash memory card and a bolt-on 3rd party product.

I'll grant you that this approach certainly allows NetApp to "check the box" with an absolute minimum of R+D investment. And, given your situation, maybe this was the right thing for you to do.

But -- really -- can you make an argument that this will be attractive to customers vs. other approaches?

I've read through your post twice now, and -- for some reason -- there isn't any mention of block protocols -- did I miss something?

And Val, as always, you get an A+ for creative writing -- you've got a good knack for this sort of thing.

Best of luck, guys ...

-- Chuck

Well Chuck, read again:

"NetApp’s Unified Storage 2.0 not only leads the pack with truly native primary storage implementations of *all* protocols (SAN / NAS / iSCSI *and* FCoE), [...]"

What else did you miss twice reading this article?

Is this the response to Netapp's perceived flash gap ? maybe a case of, "How I Learned to Stop Worrying and Love RamSan"

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Missile_gap


Hi Geert

There's a difference between "supports" and "recommends", and that's what I couldn't figure out.

For example, all of the charts talk about file system performance, not block I/O.

But maybe you haven't gotten around to testing that part yet ... just checking!

Must be tough putting lipstick on this one ..

-- Chuck

Val -

Just checking to be sure I've got this straight:

1) Netapps is shipping a DRAM-based PAM that can be used with (most) Netapps Filers, which gets only the largest Filer anywhere close to the global memory supported by a DMX or an USP-V.

2) Netapps now supports putting a TMS RamSan 500 cached Flash RAID controller (http://www.superssd.com/products/ramsan-500/) behind a Netapps Vseries controller.

3) Netapps customers still CANNOT add high-performance flash devices - storage OR cache - to any currently shipping or installed Netapps Filers.

Yawn!

13 months and counting since EMC kicked off this whole new Era of Flash, and Netapps still haven't gotten out of the gate with integrated Flash solutions...

And then you have the gumption to claim that WAFL is the secret sauce that Flash needs, when in fact the TMS RamSan 500 ALREADY BUFFERS WRITES to minimize wear-out of the underlying flash devices...that's why it's called "Cached Flash RAID"!!! (see for yourself http://www.superssd.com/products/ramsan-500/).

Zow-wee, boys, we got some Creative Marketing going on here now, don't we?

Barry

P.S.: Bet you couldn't wait to use that SSSI title in a blog ;^)

Where's Virgo?

I was expecting the 512GB FLASH based PAM module but it looks like I'm too early.

Val, I can see how WAFL could be used as a native/integrated replacement for off-the-shelf wear leveling and flash allocation tech, and that this would provide solid benefits in terms of performance and reliability of flash chips. But certainly the TMS is doing its own wear leveling and allocation, so it's not used there. And the PAM isn't really WAFL, right? So where will we see integrated WAFL/flash like you wrote about?

Who cares how "integrated" at the drive or shelf or cache-level this offering it is!

All I care about is the overall physical density and resulting power drain per system performance.

If NetApp can trump EMC (or others) on these metrics then kudos (and $$) to them. Otherwise all this back-and-forth sniping is moot.

Pragmatist, well if that's all your bothered about, why gild the lily, just lose the Vfilers and just go with the RamSan. Rack Density will be better as will power consumption and subsequent cooling. Single support contract with no dodgy cross vendor support agreements or overheads.

It's somewhat amusing to watch EMC pound square pegs into round holes (and bash anyone else that doesn't follow suit with a big mallet as well), but there comes a time when you need to step back and think about the underlying technology. After Chuck's littlev tirade about what is physical and what is virtual (he still doesn't comprehend the L in LUN), how can he advocate flash? Hypocracy runs deep at EMC it seems.

At it's most basic level, flash has extremely poor write performance which is limited by the number of erase blocks, and that fact that cells wear. To overcome these limitations and produce the desireable performance levels, you need multiple erase blocks, wear leveling, over provisioning, and sophisticated controllers to handles those tasks. When you look at wear leveling algorithims, guess what, they don't overwrite. Yes, this is hidden from the storage controller when you pound flash into a disk form factor (find the L yet?); still, that goes directly against everything Chuck's been preaching for a year or more... Can I get a halleluah from ya preacher?

I'd personally love to see WAFL applied to the wear leveling algorithms. I think that where we stand today, we're only scratching the surface of where the technology can go. If, in the other hand, you insist on pounding square pegs into round holes, yet again forcing overly complex and contraining APIs upon the user, you'll never get there.

Pound away EMC.

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